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lemonlime  
#1 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 4:06:54 AM(UTC)
lemonlime

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Hi guys! I am interested in buying metastock and that is for writing explorations and system testers. I have spoken with one of metastock's salesmen . He was very kind , explaind me a little about the software and everything seemed very promissing, especially the plug-ins-I haven't heared about things like that in any other software. But when I checked out the formula primer I was very disappointed and confused! It looked more like a reference book and not like a real serious elaborated studyguide for the formula ( I have to mention thogh,that I didn't read it very thoroughly....). I looked at some formulas written by members of the forum and I didn't understand much... pllllllllllllease tell me that the manual and the disks that I will get when I buy metastock are more elaborate , with many more examples, because I don't think I could master the formula just from the formula primer. I know some people who use welth-lab software but its formula is pascal-based , and that didn't appeal to me because I am not a programmer. but after I have seen some of the codes written by the forum members ,the pascal looks suddenly very simple.... :) . I would like very much to use metastock. I love its platform, and it looks easy and fun to use . I only need to understand the formula. I have also heared that the use of c++ is available for metastock. a friend of mine , who is a programmer told me ( after he glimpsed at some of the formulas here:http://forum.equis.com/viewtopic.php?t=1562&sid=82d80cd64b7c1e86905394e764a1a7ce), that it would be much easier for me to learn c++ ( I have a background in math ),because It's more friendly to use and probably has more possibilities and capabilities :? so , I am very confused and I can't decide what to do.I will really appreciate any answers, advices or hints from the forum members. thanks a lot, lemonlime.[/url]
StorkBite  
#2 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 5:26:02 AM(UTC)
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Hey LL- Welcome to the forum! There is not a single comprehensive source of knowledge on MS formula writing. The User's Manual explains all of the functions in detail and has a few examples. The Formula Primer gives a lot more foundation for how to do certain tasks with the functions that are available. It does have quite a few examples and these will spawn a ton more ideas as you work through the exercises. Additional intermediate to advanced topics are covered in the training videos that are available for free here on the forum. Aside from that, there are other sources outside of the forum that are available to help you learn about the formula language. The best two that come to mind are Roy Larsen's newsletter and Jose Silva's comprehensive public list of custom indicators. Another good source for learning the formula language is the TASC journal. Every month there is a theory explained and the MS code that will accomplish that theory is published (nearly every month). It gives you the chance to see real life situations solved by the experts. You mentioned C++, but that is a whole other topic that gets into writing custom routines and then calling them as external functions outside of MS. IMO, it is a blessing and a can of worms; definitely not required for most users.
lemonlime  
#3 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 10:34:38 AM(UTC)
lemonlime

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Hey g. thank you very much for your response.perhaps if I studied the formula primer more I would understand the formula better. I also noticed the tutorials you mentioned and I hope they will be usefull for me and other beginners . But still, the reason I mentioned pascal & c++ ,is because they are easy to figure out! Just look at this ( a randomaly chosen formula from the formula collection): Correl(((Sum(Cum(1)*(Mov(C,12,E)-Mov(C,26,E)),100))-(Sum(Cum(1),100)* Sum((Mov(C,12,E)-Mov(C,26,E)),100)/100))/((Sum(Power(Cum(1),2),100))- (Power(Sum(Cum(1),100),2)/100)),((Sum(Cum(1)*C,100))-(Sum(Cum(1),100)* Sum(C,100)/100))/((Sum(Power(Cum(1),2),100))-(Power(Sum(Cum(1),100),2)/100)),12,0) .............. Can you honestly look at this and figure out what it means? It doesn't look too intuitive, does it...? If you can tell me that you understand it and you think that so will I (with time & practice..) ,assuming that I'm not completely dumb, that will satisfy me and and will get me to start and learn the formula more thoroughly. Moreover, correct me if I'm wrong, even if I choose to use c++ for writing codes, I'd still have to understand to some level the ms formula. Also , you mentioned Roy Larsen's newsletter and Jose Silva's comprehensive public list of custom indicators- I'll appreciate if you can specify briefly where do I find them-(are these the feeds to my left?) .Also, you wrote about the TASC journal. could you expand on that a bit? Is it an on-line journal or a paper one..I'm not a US resident so I have never heared of this.... And back to the learning issue- would you recommend other tutorials such as "Discovering the Power of MetaStock Interactive CD-ROM and Workbook" that is available to purchase or the two martin pring's c d -roms?.. And again, if you'l excuse me , a question not about understanding or learning the ms formula, but about its capability and efficiency.Let's take a simple example- In your opinion ,can you ,or other experts, write a code that indetifies positive (or negative) divergence between ,let's say, the highs of the prices and the macd? and that is not just finding a pattern when the prices go up and the macd goes down! the code should be able to find two successesive highs (local maximum points in math language) both in the prices and the macd, and on top of that, with the prices, the second high should be higher than the first and with the macd, the second high should be lower.... I don't see how that can be done without some kind of looping- and that was just an example... my programmer friend whom I metiond before, told me that writing it in c++ (or even without the pluses...) would be a breeze.... I know I asked a lot of questions but I would be very gratefull if you or someone else could address them. thanks again, lemonlime.
hayseed  
#4 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 12:44:08 PM(UTC)
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hey ll..... metastock is much easier to grasp than wealthlab..... the formula primer is just that , a primer..... jose includes his link with every post.... roys site ...... yes depending on your resolve, you should be able to understand 90% of the metastock formulas posted on the web within 6 months..... the other 10%, which include some of roy's and henry's might take much longer........ and you and i might never understand all they write..... in my view, thats not a negative ....... and parrelling g's thought's , the download section here on the forum contains many small step learning devices, the primer being only one...... when you have time, look at some of the video's also.... all have helped me..... metastock is like any language, best learned one letter at a time........ you can do it.......h
wabbit  
#5 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 1:35:34 PM(UTC)
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lemonlime, I had the privilege of attending a session with Jim Berg last night and was completely taken aback by his use of MS. He is a very successful trader, but his system is sooooo simple, that it does not even begin to test the limits of MS in any way, shape or form. It proves, again, you do not have to get complicated, or mega-technical to make money. KISS. MS is a tool that you will use to facilitate your trading; it will adapt to your trading style as much as you will adapt to it. It will NOT however, be a system that you start up, leave alone for it to make money for you. You must learn to interact with MS else it will do nothing other than show you a lot of pretty coloured lines that mean nothing. If you already have a background in any sort of maths or programming then you will easily appreciate the MS formula language. Like C, MSFL has its own syntax, like Pascal it has different strengths and weaknesses. MSFL is robust in that it does what it is designed to do. Jose, Roy, Hayseed and others extend the MSFL beyond these limits, so please do not read their code and think they are writing for the novice. Their code is posted generally for people who are beyond the basic realm of the MS Formula Primer, and are themselves looking to further their own MS knowledge, to further shape MS to suit their trading. I believe Equis still offers a trial period. Have a go and see how it goes. Spend the time in the MS Users Manual coming to terms with the very basic concepts of indicators, explorations, system testing and experts before getting ingrained into the formula language itself. There is more to MS than simply programming indicators. Hope this helps, and if you have more questions, please ask. wabbit :D
lemonlime  
#6 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 2:10:50 PM(UTC)
lemonlime

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Hey hayseed (no pun intended :lol: ..) thank you very much for your response. I hope everyone in this forum is kind and supportive like you and g. but you see , I do face a dilemma... before I go and spend more than 500$ ( not to mention those tempting plug-ins..) and spending many many hours learning metastock ,(about six months ,you said...) ,i'm just trying to make sure I am going for the right software for me. For example, do you think you can write an ms code to the problem I set above (the negative divergence)?.. in pascal (welthlab) It is easy if you know it in a basic level.I'm not sure I will be able to do it in ms formula. That is why I am so interested in the option of using c++ or ,as I was told, even visual basic . I did learn some computer language in a very basic level in university (I have a B.A in economics) . welthlab enables you to program, but its platform is not as good as ms. plus,they don't have technical support as in ms , their forum, to my impression , is not as good as ms's, and they don't have those wonderfull plug-ins...that is why I am so eager to know if and how I could combine c++ with ms. that would give me the ultimate software. and yet, maybe when I'm done learning the ms formula, I will discover that is all I need... For now , I'm steel confused :? .... thank you very much, lemonlime.
lemonlime  
#7 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 3:29:27 PM(UTC)
lemonlime

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wabbit...... somehow I just saw your reply, so first of all, thank you for your concern and encouragement (and the option to speak to someone in the opposite side of the earth :D ) I am simply saying that a standart computer language might be easier to write explorations and system testes with than the MSFL. In your oppinion, do you think that a novice could write a code for the simple task as the one I set above? ...in pascal it is easy ,and my guess is that in c it will not be much different (that programmer friend of mine actually told me that c is simpler and easier than pascal...... ) you see, a code that could be suitable only for roy , heyseed or jose in MSFL , might be easier to compose in c or visual basic...that is why , as i explained to heyseed , I ask so much about how comlicated should it be to integrate c in metastock. I was told that it is possible, but I don't know how difficult it is....and to anybody who can answer me about this,I would like very much to read whatever you have to say! :) To your question, I don't think that a trial of one month will help me make up my mind. As I said before, my main goal in ms is scanning, meaning writing explorations.I don't think I could study that in a month...And No, I don't want to use ms to trade automatically for me, I am simply looking for a good and solid scanning and back-testing tool (with all the visual graphs and stuff -but just that can be found in a much lesser softwares than ms..) and one last question- why can I add emoticons only at first, and in my replies, I have to submit it without them then edit, and only then I can add them......? :( thanks a lot to anyone who reads this ,lemonlime.
Jose  
#8 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 4:14:06 PM(UTC)
Jose

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LemonLime, I'm no programmer by any means, but I can tell you that there are very few (if any) C++ programmers trading successfully in the markets. The reason for this may be because C++ and other programming languages, as powerful as they are, do not have the dedicated set of chart-based functions that helps makes MetaStock so user-friendly. The learning curve for MetaStock is quite manageable. And as for the MACD divergence, there are free formulae as well as add-ons available. jose '-)
StorkBite  
#9 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 4:43:37 PM(UTC)
StorkBite

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Quote:
Can you honestly look at this and figure out what it means?
You have to break it down into sections to digest... just like any other programming language.
Quote:
Moreover, correct me if I'm wrong, even if I choose to use c++ for writing codes, I'd still have to understand to some level the ms formula.
IMO, yes.
Quote:
Also, you wrote about the TASC journal. could you expand on that a bit? Is it an on-line journal or a paper one..I'm not a US resident so I have never heared of this....
http://www.traders.com/
Quote:
And back to the learning issue- would you recommend other tutorials such as "Discovering the Power of MetaStock Interactive CD-ROM.
Personally, I didn't get a lot out of it, but everyone is different.
Quote:
Write a code... I don't see how that can be done without some kind of looping
Yes, that can be done; C++ not required. Look up examples of HHV() and Ref() and similar functions to see how they are used. While plug-ins are abundant, you'll want to spend some time getting to understand the basic product. It includes many, many indicators and explorations.
lemonlime  
#10 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 5:31:28 PM(UTC)
lemonlime

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hey jose! thank you for your reply. first , let me be more precise about what i ment regarding to c++, pascal , and so forth. in welthlab , for example, they do not actually use pascal.the software contains about 200 or more fuctions that are specific to trading and espcially tehnical analysis.these functions are then integrated in a "pascal -based" formula alonng with the built-in TA indicators (also about 200 or more.....) .that's what makes it so powerfull! I hoped that such a combination was available in MS and I didn't get a strait answer yet.... About the MACD divergence, first of all I didn't no such a plug -in existed. it is not mentioned in MS website.... and if I understood correctly, it's not free... but I have to admit that I didn't understand what was drawn there....This is not at all the classic divergence that I have come to know and love... I want to send you a chart which visually shows what I mean, but I don't know how to attach files ,so I will add a link: http://stockcharts.com/e...nalysis/indic_MACD1.html you can see there what I mean. thanks again,lemonlime.
Jose  
#11 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 7:11:58 PM(UTC)
Jose

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LemonLime, as far as I know MetaStock formula language is Pascal-based. The 200-odd indicators available in WealthLab pale into insignificance with the thousands & thousands freely available to MetaStock. As for their usefulness, well, it depends... The MACD & MACD Histogram found in your link are basic charting indicators. The myriad applications based on them can be validly coded into MetaStock as long as there is no hindsight involved, and the logic is well defined. "Continuous and relatively smooth move" is an example of undefined & hindsight-based "logic". To wrap it up, I haven't found any limitations to coding valid strategies in MetaStock. jose '-)
hayseed  
#12 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 7:26:40 PM(UTC)
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hey ll.... most popular thoughts come pre coded into meta.... macd divergence is one such..... but also most any divergence is already coded for you in meta.... those codes can be improved upon..... or at least changed..... equis claims meta comes with over 150 prepackaged indicators..... its probably closer to 200...... in a hours time you could double that number..... lack of indicators will not be a problem..... there are some sharp guys over at wealthlab, some will help out others..... the price is right but it always seemed to me too dos'ish..... metastock is more user friendly..... the macd divergence formula below shows the same divergence for 'nvls' in sept/oct of 99 like your stockcharts page does...... metastock can do it, so can you...... i have something written up along that line, will post it later.... if i can find it that is.....h macd divergence
Divergence( MACD(),C,.5) ------------------------
Jose  
#13 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 8:07:25 PM(UTC)
Jose

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hayseed wrote:
Divergence( MACD(),C,.5)
Before we get too excited about the above's signals, take note:
MetaStock help wrote:
The Divergence function is based on the Zig Zag formula. First, a % MINIMUM CHANGE Zig Zag is calculated for DATA ARRAY 1. Next, a Zig Zag is calculated for DATA ARRAY 2 using the % MINIMUM CHANGE required to match the number of Zig Zag segments in DATA ARRAY 1 over the data range loaded. The two Zig Zags are then compared for divergence and convergence. Be forewarned, that the last leg (i.e., segment) of the Zig Zag is dynamic, meaning that it can change. Therefore, be careful when designing system tests, experts, etc. based on the Zig Zag indicator.
jose '-)
lemonlime  
#14 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 9:27:22 PM(UTC)
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Hey Jose, I understood from the links you sent me that you develop plug-ins yourself. 8) ... the link spcifies 3 types of divergences in the macd. you wrote a formula about the last one, the macd histogram. you yourself remark that it "fakes" many times...or something like that.... Let me ask you a simple and direct question: Can you build a formula that findes macd divergences of the first ,the classic kind? to be more precise , the formula should detect ,(with some degree of accuracy),the possible divergence b e f o r e it's actually happens,thus enables the trader to monitor specific securities that are on the way of creating a divergence ,and trade immediately when/if it's formed. and allow me to emphasize: I mean the first kind of the divergence . by the way , such kind of a formula could fit lots of indicators,not just the macd.... If such a code is already built in MS :eek: ,you can overlook my question.. many thanks, lemonlime.
Jose  
#15 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 10:49:50 PM(UTC)
Jose

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Lemonlime, I can practically code almost any condition in MetaStock, as long as it doesn't violate any of nature's laws, such as looking into the future. Having said that, the MACDH Divergence kit includes warning divergence signals which appear on the day prior to the actual divergence signals. These warning signals always appear before each divergence signal, and approx 33% of these signals go on to become actual divergence signals. jose '-)
lemonlime  
#16 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 11:07:57 PM(UTC)
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Jose my friend!...your macdh divergence kit handles divergences of the MACD HISTOGRAM!! :twisted: I specificaly asked about divergences of the macd fast line ,not the histogram! Can you or can you not do that?
Jose  
#17 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 11:16:57 PM(UTC)
Jose

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LemonLime, replacing the MACD Histogram for any other indicator in the MACD Histogram Divergence kit is child's play. jose '-)
lemonlime  
#18 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 11:29:48 PM(UTC)
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Well, maybe for you! And hopefully for me too once I learn and master MS. (I haven't even started yet...) For now, I can only thank all of you who answered my questions! regards, lemonlime.
StorkBite  
#19 Posted : Friday, May 5, 2006 11:42:17 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for giving us the oportunity to help you make a decision. I believe that you got some quality responses. MS is a top-notch program and I'm sure that you'll find it useful in analyzing the technical aspects of your trades. Good luck to you. BTW, MS has a built-in function that calculates the predefined MACD indicator. The formula "macd()" returns the value of the MACD indicator (i.e., the solid line). The formula "mov(macd(),9,E)" returns the value of the MACD's signal line (i.e., the dotted line). This is probably fundamental to your original question, but it reinforces what Hayseed was telling you about the abyundant number of stock indicators. Once you start mixing these up, you'll have more variations than you could have ever hoped for.
wabbit  
#20 Posted : Saturday, May 6, 2006 1:20:58 AM(UTC)
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lemonlime, These discussions might also hold some more information/advice for you: General thoughts about new MS users and purchasing addins: http://forum.equis.com/viewtopic.php?t=3829 A general comment about "systems" that you can buy! http://forum.equis.com/viewtopic.php?t=3579 Hope this help. wabbit :D
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